Lisa
& Asher,
Jewish Israeli citizens
By
Vicky
Rossi, TFF Associate
September 5, 2006
Interview
# 3 of 4
Lisa
& Asher
Jewish Israeli citizens
I would like to thank Lisa and Asher for having
the courage to talk to me openly about their thoughts and feelings
as Jewish Israeli citizens. The following transcript offers a valuable
perspective on the part of two persons who are naturally proud to
be citizens of the State of Israel, but who also show the maturity
to question the ongoing struggle between their nation and the Palestinian
population.
Vicky
Rossi: Lisa, were you born in Israel and did you grow up there?
Lisa:
No, I was born in South Africa and my family emigrated to Israel when
I was eleven years old. They emigrated to a city just north of Tel Aviv
and I grew up and went to school there, although I have travelled abroad
a lot since then.
Vicky
Rossi: What kind of stereotypical ideas of Jewish Israelis have you found
that people you have met on your travels have had?
Lisa:
They have stereotypical images of the soldiers and their rude, bad behaviour.
Although I can’t really justify the soldiers’ behaviour, if
I have to find something to explain a little bit then I would say that
young 18 year olds find themselves having to go straight into the army,
having to face the situation of suddenly wearing a uniform, suddenly having
to hold guns and having to do what they have to do in the Occupied Territories.
It is very few who have the courage to go against the whole system of
going into the army and to refuse. It’s a small percentage because
to go so much against the flow of Israeli society is not easy at all.
Vicky
Rossi: That’s military service for girls and boys then? How long
does it last?
Lisa:
For girls it is 2 years, maybea little bit less now. In my time it was
2 years. And the boys do 3 years.
Vicky
Rossi: So you did your military service as well?
Lisa:
Yeah.
Vicky
Rossi: Is military service done away from home or can the soldiers go
home at night?
Lisa:
Well, for my personal military service I put in a special request so that
I could be close to home to continue with my dance practice. I got a job
in an army dental clinic in Tel Aviv, but after a year I decided that
I should take advantage of the time in the army because the army service
in Israel – not during times like this [referring to war in Lebanon]
– is a social time. You get to meet people from all over Israel.
So in my 2nd year I got a job on a mobile dental clinic that moved along
the army posts on the border with Lebanon and in the Golan Heights. Every
2 weeks I was at a different army base.
Vicky
Rossi: During your time with the mobile clinic did you ever sense that
any of the soldiers were unhappy with the work they had to do? Did you
ever come across anybody who had decided, “I can’t do this
anymore?”
Lisa:
In the first year when I was in a base close to home the soldiers would
do their work and go back home at night. It was a whole different atmosphere.
In the army they call them the “jobniks”. The jobniks come
and do their job and then go back home in the evening. But in infantry
units up north, in the 2nd year that I was in the army, they were difficult
conditions and it was difficult what they were doing. At that time there
were ambushes…
Vicky
Rossi: Which year was this?
Lisa:
1985-87. It was difficult…difficult…it was difficult.
Vicky
Rossi: In the West we are told that the Israelis need such a large army
for security purposes. Where does that urgent need for security come?
Is this fear and sense of vulnerability something which existed prior
to the Second World War? Is it a really deep rooted cultural thing?
Lisa:
I think it is very deep rooted and of course after the Holocaust even
more so. I think the Jews have always isolated themselves and been different.
In their sacred knowledge of the Torah they have kept together as a people
over hundreds of years, but in keeping to this they have isolated themselves.
Then with the Holocaust the fear of survival has become even more deep
rooted. It is a real fear. From the very moment the state of Israel was
created, the Jews were – from the Jewish perspective – attacked
by the Arabs. From the beginning they were attacked – in the 1948
war. So there is this constant fear and the knowledge that we also want
to be on this land.
Vicky
Rossi: And it was as if this fear was confirmed in 1948?
Lisa:
I think even before ’48 when Jews started coming to Palestine and
there was objection from the Arab people. Then there was of course also
the fear of the Arab people that the Jews would come and take over the
land. If back then we could have found a way to reconcile and build a
peace culture it might have saved a lot of suffering, but we didn’t
manage to do that. It was fear. Since the first Intifada, it has been
like separating the people even more because you didn’t know if
you could trust an Arab person or not. You never know.
My personal experience
was that when I was in the 2nd year of the army with all the infantry
soldiers who were fighting the enemy, I was on the side of Israel and
we had to defend ourselves against the enemy. It was the enemy.
After the army I went
travelling and for the first time, at the age of 21, when I was travelling
in Europe I met Arab people and saw the human being in the Arab people,
which for me was such a revelation. That’s how I started to open
up more and more. When I started travelling and meeting internationals,
I began to put things more in perspective. Prior to that I was living
in my little bubble in Eilat, teaching children, doing a lot of good work
but I tried to keep my own personal energy field positive so that when
the first Intifada happened, for example, I didn’t want to get involved.
I was like an ostrich
with its head in the sand and I was happy like that. When I returned to
Israel after my travels I was clear that I wanted to do something for
peace. I knew that I had to do something because I knew that something
was very, very wrong.
Vicky
Rossi: What were the events that followed and that helped you on your
way?
Lisa:
Firstly, it was defining that my vision was to co-create a peace village.
Two months later I discovered the Grace Pilgrimage led by Sabine Lichtenfels
[This pilgrimage went through Israel and the West Bank in November 2005
(1)]. This pilgrimage was a huge transformation for me. For the first
time I faced the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and saw with my own eyes
and heard with my own ears the Palestinian perspective on the situation,
which was something that I have never ever even thought of.
First of all, I was
a new immigrant to Israel so the history I learnt at school was to pass
the exams. On the pilgrimage it was the first time, at the tender age
of 39, that I opened my eyes to the political and historical realities
of the conflict. The pilgrimage was a huge transformation for me. It opened
my eyes to the enormous injustice that Israel had done and is doing. It’s
a conflict situation because on the one hand I know it is unjust, it’s
terrible injustice, especially now with Lebanon it is hard to absorb that
Israel is doing this.
On the other hand
as an Israeli living in my home and being attacked by Hizbollah and hearing
Iran say they want to destroy Israel, feeling suddenly again that this
is a threat as well. They are confusing feelings. But regarding the Palestinian
conflict, Israel has a lot of work to do.
Vicky
Rossi: Focusing then on the Israeli-Palestinian issue as opposed to the
current war in Lebanon, are there groups working locally to promote peace
initiatives and reconciliation? If so how have they have been able to
overcome their fear and sense of insecurity in order to be able to do
this?
Lisa:
They have seen the truth of what Israel is doing. They have dared to want
to know and to open their eyes. When I came back from the West Bank, on
the Grace Pilgrimage, I meet a friend who told me, “You must take
care of your own people first”. She couldn’t understand what
I was doing at all. What I feel I need to do is to formulate a really
simple way of getting behind people’s fears and showing them what
Israel has done and is doing. It’s hard to face so nobody faces
it. You know life in Israel is not easy, unless you are part of the top
echelons. Most people are struggling to survive, to buy petrol, to pay
the rent. It’s not easy to survive. People are so involved in trying
to survive in their own lives that they don’t have a space to open
their minds.
Vicky
Rossi: That’s interesting when you say that people are struggling
to survive because the image I get from outside is that all Israelis enjoy
a good standard of life.
Lisa:
Well you know what, it is all relative: maybe not struggling to survive
like the Palestinian people are struggling to survive. Struggling to survive
maybe compared to the Europeans.
Vicky
Rossi: You said earlier that through your travels you were able to see
the human side of the Arab people. Do you think that this is the key then?
Lisa:
Yes. Over the last months since the pilgrimage, I have been
going to listening circles – Arabs and Jews talking and expressing
their views – conferences, dialogue through the arts, all different
types of peace work that is going on in Israel, trying to build bridges
and get people to meet. I come from a non-political family, so I felt
totally ignorant to this whole awareness thing. During the pilgrimage
I could, for the first time, talk to and be friends with the Arab people.
That’s what needs to be done. We need to meet and talk and be friends.
We need to build bridges and do projects together. At the grassroots level
that’s what needs to happen. For example, it’s beginning to
happen on a small level in the Sulha. Have you heard of the Sulha?
Vicky
Rossi: No
Lisa:
Sulha is an Arab word meaning reconciliation. When you have people fighting
you first decide on a houdna – a ceasefire – and you negotiate
and you talk and then you have a sulha, which is like reconciliation.
There is an association called On the Way to Sulha. Once a year they hold
an enormous, 3 day event. For the last few years 4,000-5,000 people have
come: Arabs and Jews, Palestinians from the Territories who have managed
to get permission to enter Israel, Palestinian Israelis coming together
for a meeting. They have it also on the religious level in that they bring
together Christian priests, Jewish rabbis and imams. They have a religious
ceremony of reconciliation between the religions. They have all kinds
of workshops – music workshops, listening circles, a women’s
tent, children’s events. It’s like a whole festival of Arabs
and Jews meeting. They call it On the Way to Sulha because there is a
long way to go.
Vicky
Rossi: This is an annual event then?
Lisa:
Yes, they have the big annual event but they also have smaller events
during the year like a children’s what they call “sulhita”,
which is a children’s sulha with Arab and Jewish youth. When the
war started just now the organisation held a gathering to unite Arabs
and Jews - well no Palestinians managed to come [they were not given permission
to travel] – in mercy and compassion for all victims in Lebanon,
Gaza, the West Bank and the north and south of Israel. Just uniting together
in prayer, in listening circles, lighting candles and singing songs together.
That was just a little event. They have little events like that throughout
the year. If they had more budget they could do it on a larger scale.
Vicky
Rossi: On that point, where do they get their funding from?
Lisa:
They have some sponsorship from the United States. If only their work
could be done on a large scale! Especially amongst Israelis there is so
much unawareness. It would be important for those Israelis who aren’t
aware to come into a listening circle and “hear”, hear with
their own ears because there is a big separation. There are a few areas
in Israel like Jerusalem, Haifa and Jaffa where Arabs and Jews live together,
but there’s separation even there. Amongst all the peacework that
needs to be done is the bridging, the bringing together and the befriending
of each other, the getting to knowing each other. The only Palestinians
I know are through the pilgrimage. I wouldn’t have met them otherwise
and I can’t see them now when I am at home.
Vicky
Rossi: Is that because you need a permit to travel to Palestine?
Lisa:
They can’t come into Israel. I went into the West Bank on the pilgrimage,
but at the moment, I mean, I wouldn’t go there. It needs to be quite
a peaceful time to go there peacefully, in trust.
Vicky
Rossi: When you go back to Israel after this conference do you think you
will try to collaborate with the On the Way to Sulha organisation you
mentioned? Or do you see another channel through which you would like
to work for peace?
Lisa:
I’d like to be part of the Sulha as well. I helped them with telephoning
and emailing for the annual event this year. If I had been in Israel right
now I would also have participated in the recent event they held. Then
there’s another organisation called the Middle Way. It started off
as a Buddhist meditation group – inside meditation. They decided
that the development of inner peace through meditation was not enough
and that you had to send it out so they started doing these silent meditation
peace walks through Arab villages. Up until today they continue to do
these walks every once in a while. A lot of them also do humanitarian
work inside Palestine.
Vicky
Rossi: Once again, do those kinds of movements get their financing from
outside?
Lisa:
I think they are self-financed. Then there is the peace movement Bat Shalom.
The Peace Now movement is like a political movement. I also went to a
conference for dialogue through the arts and a seminar held for Jews and
Arabs by Byron Katie. She is a spiritual teacher who promotes the process
of self-enquiry. She would say that everything is in your mind. If you
ask yourself questions you can change the thoughts you have in your mind.
Vicky
Rossi: What has struck me here in Tamera is how Palestinians and Jews
can get on so well together, laughing together and enjoying each other’s
company. There seems to be no sense of animosity between the two groups.
Is that because I have met “unusual” Jews and Palestinians
here? Or is that rapprochement possible on a larger scale through, for
example, the kind of meetings you mentioned?
Lisa:
Personally I overcame a lot of my obstacles through talking to the Palestinians
who took part in the Grace pilgrimage. Before that I had done silent retreats
and things, but nothing was as intense as the pilgrimage. It was intense
as I was just talking and talking with the Palestinians all day long,
understanding, overcoming and crying. But there is still so much that
I don’t understand because the conflict goes very deep. I think
the Palestinians who took part on the pilgrimage and who are here in Tamera
also have a deeper and higher perspective of the conflict. They seem to
understand the Israeli mentality, but I think there is still a lot of
work to be done to change the conditioned way of thinking of both Jews
and Palestinians.
Vicky
Rossi: On the subject of conditioned thinking, what’s the schooling
like in Israel? Children only learn what they are taught after all. Is
the education system pretty open or do you feel that it also is instrumental
in propagating the negative attitudes between Jews and Palestinians?
Lisa:
Maybe Asher can answer that better because I can see only now that when
I studied the history of the conflict I was told only parts of the truth.
I wasn’t told the whole truth and I am sure that on the Palestinian
side they were also told only parts of the truth. I think these ongoing
misunderstandings are also part of the ongoing conflict.
Asher:
Basically I think the problem is not formal education but the emotions
resulting from the traumatic events that people experience. It’s
not so much the formal study and the curriculum. It’s the emotions
experienced on both sides. Perhaps the mission is to help the people on
both sides to break through their fears. A lot of Israeli politics is
influenced by emotions. In the past none of the governments were able
to go a long way towards peace because of events, fears, public pressure
due to events and terrorism.
Vicky
Rossi: What channels would you see as being instrumental in helping Jews
and Palestinians to break down their fears?
Asher:
I think the question is not only through which channels, but how you change
the reality in which those peaceful actions and peaceful movements are
actually taking place because it’s enough to have one major terror
attack within Israel or one major offensive in Gaza to bring back all
the fears. It’s a very fragile, emotional environment. Even for
peace activists it is a test of trust when they are faced with emotional
events of such intensity.
Vicky
Rossi: Do you find it easier to view events with more clarity when you
are outside Israel?
Asher:
Yes, but that’s true of life generally. You have to
step out a little bit from your torment of emotions to see what is consciously
happening. Definitely for me when I am outside I feel relatively isolated
from the general anger and feel more of an ability to work for peace with
a long term perspective. I have listened to the talks given at the Summer
University here in Tamera and I think there is a major gap between the
ability to give birth to ideas, morals, hopes with regard Israel/Palestine
when it is here in a fairly effective bubble than to do these peace activities
over there in Israel or in Palestine. It is much more of a challenging
task to be what they call a peace worker over there. I listen to what
is said here and I try to be non-judgemental, but I do find it sometimes
to be a bit detached from reality.
Vicky Rossi: Have you found the personal experiences with Palestinians
here to have been of value to you?
Asher:
For me that is my field of action in this life. Peace through personal
encounter. Not so much through talking, but by doing. I live in the Harduf
Kibbutz, which is surrounded by Bedouin villages, the native Palestinian
villages in Israel. I do have to admit that before I aspire for a solution
with the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, I am asking myself
how much do I do with my neighbours, who live just a few hundred metres
away from me? I think it starts from there. About a month ago I invited
a group of kids from the neighbouring Bedouin village and their teachers
to the kibbutz and we had an exciting day. We went to see the beehives
that I have and they helped me to extract the honey. It brought me much
joy. I think that’s the thing. We need to find a way to bring joy.
There has to be a way to do things in a lighter way. When you go there
only for the purpose of talking, there is always something which is a
barrier. If you don’t know the person, you are inclined to see the
mask, not the real person himself or herself. But by doing things together
the mask is partly removed and you can really see the person. And yes
you are still a Palestinian or you are still an Israeli, but there is
something more of a personal connection. Then the exchange is often much
more honest and much deeper.
Vicky
Rossi: It seems from both you and Lisa that the key is the personal contact,
meeting people and doing things together.
Lisa:
Recently I went into Nazareth to give a yoga class to a woman. For me
besides spreading yoga, which is a good thing for everyone, it was the
personal contact that was most valuable.
Vicky
Rossi: She was Palestinian?
Lisa:
It was a group of Arab women from Nazareth. You have a Jewish part of
Nazareth and an Arab part of Nazareth. They are separated by a road and
there is no connection between them. It is really like two different worlds.
After teaching just one class I befriended one of the women and she invited
me to her home. So through my work I was able to reach out and make a
connection. I think this is what we need to do more of – reaching
out and making a connection – because we all want to live on this
land so we need to start building a culture of peace. We are so used to
thinking of each other as enemies and thinking of war that we are cultivating
the opposite of a culture of peace. I think there must be some kind of
simple formula, or simple statements, which would make people understand
what the situation is and what needs to be done without making them cringing
in defence.
Vicky
Rossi: Maybe that kind of formula, those kinds of statements, would come
out when, like you were saying Asher, people are working or doing something
together because at the same time they are talking and perhaps those kinds
of ideas would come out more easily and spontaneously that way? This is
in contrast to when people are just sitting around a table having a formal
dialogue, in which case people feel more on the spot to say something
perhaps.
Asher:
Yes, but having said that there is still a gap between this kind of work
and the political reality, especially among the Palestinians there’s
a lot of frustration. So for me it is quite clear that it is not enough.
Both sides must realise that they have to take full responsibility for
the actions of their extremists. Even though those extremists are minorities,
one action by a minority group is enough to destroy the efforts of many,
many people of goodwill. That’s the sad reality over there that
the minorities, the extremes, act out of despair mostly. They know that
despair feeds fear, fear feeds hate, hate feeds violence. It is a closed
circle. These emotions dictate behaviour in any situation. It is just
more intensified in Israel and Palestine. It’s a very hard test
for both sides to take responsibility for the extremists. The situation
needs to change.
The source
of what is happening in this conflict between Israel and Palestine is
the same as what is happening in the daily life of all of us. They are
the same seeds of violence that exist in our relations with our neighbours,
with our partners, with ourselves in our daily lives. Human psychology
is what lies at the root of this conflict. I think we need to see the
conflict less in terms of being between Israelis and Palestinians and
more in terms of something that represents our daily life just more intensified.
This is why for me it is very important that what we call the international
community is involved not only in a diplomatic capacity, but that people
come and really make an effort to be involved for the long term in the
area. To be there physically.
Vicky
Rossi: In what capacity? With what role?
Asher:
They don’t have to do anything in particular.
Vicky
Rossi: Just witnessing? Just to be there?
Asher:
Yes, just to be there.
Lisa:
And to understand, to facilitate, to help bridge. This can transform lives.
Asher:
Just the presence of neutral parties enables people on both
sides to really open their hearts and speak. A lot of suffering is released
when you speak out. Quite often though there isn’t enough trust
in the other person on the other side of the conflict to do this. In a
way the international community could make a huge contribution there by
taking a neutral position.
1. See
http://www.igf-online.org/index.php?id=194
*This transcript
represents an accurate but non-verbatim representation of the original
interview.
The 4 interviews
Interview
# 1 - Reuven Moskovitz
Interview
# 2 - Inam Wahidi
Interview
# 3 - Lisa & Asher
Interview
# 4 - Sami Awad
All
Rossi interviews here
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